Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. battled CNN’s Dana Bash, Sunday morning on “State of the Union,” over who holds the most responsibility for the damage caused by COVID lockdowns, why the U.S. had one of the worst death rates from the pandemic, and what should be improved to reduce the impact of future disease outbreaks.
Bash said President Trump deserves blame for what happened under him in the first year of the pandemic, and disputed Kennedy’s assertion that the U.S. had the “highest death rate of any country in the world,” reading a statement that said that’s not accurate because, “Public-health experts say that there is a combination of factors that went into that: higher rates of chronic illnesses… gaps in our health care system and misinformation about vaccines.”
“I think the thing that did the most damage to our country was the lockdowns,” Kennedy said. “Anthony Fauci was mismanaging the COVID pandemic, and he was doing it under the Biden administration. President Trump wanted to end the lockdowns.”
CNN’s Dana Bash argued: “Certainly Anthony Fauci and the president had opinions, but the lockdowns were done by governors.”
“They were doing it because Anthony Fauci was telling them from the top: You need to lock down,” Kennedy said.
“President Trump was the guy in charge,” Bash said. “You tweeted back in 2024 that he let bureaucrats like Anthony Fauci shut down the entire country. Again, the president was in charge.”
“The president was trying to reopen the country. When he left, the country was kept closed for almost another year and a half after that,” said Secretary Kennedy.
“You were part of the problem,” he said. “Part of the problem was absolute press malpractice.”
“Your job is fierce skepticism toward authority, and you weren’t doing that. You were beating up dissenting voices.”
Bash said: “Are you going to sit here and attack me, or do you want to have a conversation?”
“You’re attacking me,” Kennedy said.
A CNN spokesperson adds: “Dana Bash is a veteran journalist who conducted a newsmaking interview with Secretary Kennedy in which he stated that he supports parents getting their children vaccinated against measles and addressed President Trump’s push for further study into autism and vaccines. Asking tough, substantive questions to those in power is the job of every journalist, and Dana did hers incredibly well today. We stand behind Dana, her reporting, and CNN’s overall coverage of the COVID-19 pandemic.”
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: President Trump, as you recall, wanted to end the lockdowns. I think the thing that did the most damage to our country was the lockdowns—the lockdowns that shut down 3.5 million businesses in our country with no due process and no just compensation. All of our churches closed, our schools closed, and our children are still paying the price for that.
Yet we had the worst outcome of any country in the world.
DANA BASH: How so?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: We had the highest death rate from COVID of any nation on Earth.
DANA BASH: Let me just say, because I’ve heard you say that before, on the death rate from COVID, that’s not accurate.
Public-health experts say that there is a combination of factors that went into that: higher rates of chronic illnesses, which I know you would agree with, gaps in our health care system and misinformation about vaccines. There are other countries that had higher—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: You just said what I said was inaccurate. What I said was accurate. We had the highest death rate from COVID of any—
You can argue about why we had that, but nobody can tell you—
As you say, we have the highest chronic-disease burden in the world. But Anthony Fauci was mismanaging the COVID pandemic, and he was doing it under the Biden administration.
President Trump wanted to end the lockdowns. In Anthony Fauci’s diaries, he talks about how President Trump was calling him every day, trying to get him to reopen the country.
DANA BASH: The lockdowns were done by governors. Certainly Anthony Fauci and the president had opinions, but the lockdowns were done by governors, largely because they were hearing from hospitals saying that their ICUs were overrun and they needed some help while that was happening.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: It’s just not true.
DANA BASH: It is true.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: No. They were doing it because Anthony Fauci was telling them from the top, “You need to lock down.”
There were ICUs that were empty all over the country, including in New York at the height—
DANA BASH: I’m going to go back to what I asked you at the beginning, which is about President Trump.
He was the guy in charge. You tweeted back in 2024 that he let bureaucrats like Anthony Fauci shut down the entire country. Again, the president was in charge.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: The president was trying to reopen the country. When he left, the country was kept closed for almost another year and a half after that.
DANA BASH: Let’s talk about how to prevent the next pandemic, because there is a lot of litigating and relitigating that I don’t think is really helpful with regard to COVID.
The question is about so-called gain-of-function research, which, for people who aren’t entirely clear about it, is a highly risky research process that includes manipulating a virus to study how it behaves as it evolves.
Scientists say that, although it’s controversial, it’s necessary to prepare for the next pandemic—to get ahead of it and figure out what these viruses can do.
You want to end this gain-of-function research. Some scientists say: Isn’t it better just to put better guardrails around it?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: People have been trying to put guardrails around it for generations, and it hasn’t worked.
Clearly, the COVID-19 pandemic and many other global pandemics that we have had have come from gain-of-function research.
The RSV epidemic that we have, which is the biggest killer of kids in this country today, came from these kinds of experiments. Lyme disease almost certainly came from this kind of research.
The scientists who you say are experts are making the argument that this is necessary for pandemic response. Can they point to one instance in history where research that came out of this kind of experimentation has actually provided us something beneficial?
DANA BASH: How do you prepare for the next pandemic? That is literally part of your job now, because experts think it is going to happen within the next 10 years.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: I think we did virtually everything wrong the last time.
DANA BASH: But what about now?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: The principal thing that we need to do is listen to what’s happening with doctors on the ground.
There are 15 million frontline physicians around the world. They are mainly now connected through the internet. We can tell on the front lines what’s working and what’s not.
If we had listened to those doctors during the COVID pandemic, we potentially would have saved millions of lives.
There were therapeutics out there that were working. There were doctors who were having no deaths from COVID and treating, in some cases, thousands of patients.
We weren’t listening to them. Instead, we were doing the opposite. We were shutting them down.
Dana, the other thing I would say is that we need to protect our constitutional rights. That is the primary obligation.
DANA BASH: What does that mean?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: During COVID, we completely dismantled our constitutional rights. We began censoring people in violation of the First Amendment—
DANA BASH: You’re saying what not to do. I’m asking what to do.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: I’m talking about something to do. That is the number-one priority. We protect the Constitution. The Constitution was written—
DANA BASH: You’re talking about rights, and I’m asking about a potential public-health crisis that is coming.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: One of the mistakes we made last time was suppressing those rights, so people weren’t being heard. Doctors who were saying, “You’re doing it wrong,” were being marginalized and vilified.
DANA BASH: Again, I really want to move on—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: You were part of the problem.
DANA BASH: No, I wasn’t.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Part of the problem was absolute press malpractice. You weren’t allowing your—
DANA BASH: Mr. Secretary—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Your job is fierce skepticism toward authority, and you weren’t doing that. You were beating up—
DANA BASH: My job is also—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: —dissenting—
DANA BASH: No. Are you going to sit here and attack me, or do you want to have a conversation?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: You’re attacking me.
DANA BASH: I’m not attacking you. I’m asking questions about how to prevent the next pandemic. That’s what I’m trying to do.
I also don’t want to use this interview to allow you to say things that aren’t entirely true.
You’re talking about therapeutics. Fine. It is also factually true that the COVID vaccine worked. The COVID vaccine prevented deaths. There is data upon data upon data.
Let’s talk about measles, please, because this is something that is happening as we speak.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: The cases in the U.S. in protected children—
DANA BASH: I have talked to scientists and doctors—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: What scientists? Can you show me one study?
DANA BASH: Yes, I can.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: —that shows children were protected by the COVID vaccine? That it did more good than harm to children? Can you show me one study that shows that?
DANA BASH: I can tell you that there have been studies showing that, because of vaccine misinformation and disinformation, 100,000 to 200,000 lives in the U.S. could have been saved. But because people didn’t get the vaccine—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: You are saying nonsense. You are saying something for which you cannot show me a single study.
DANA BASH: I am not saying nonsense.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: You are talking about what somebody told you. Cite me the study. What study?
DANA BASH: You know what—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: What studies are you talking about? You’re talking about studies that actually don’t exist.
DANA BASH: I want to talk about the study that you’re talking about. You say you’ve seen studies—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: This is not productive.
DANA BASH: I am not here to defend all of the—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: You’re talking nonsense. You’re making assertions. You can’t support them, and then, when I call you on them, you tell me that I’m arguing.
DANA BASH: Do you want to talk about assertions that you can’t support? I’ll get there in a second.
Let me say for the record that I am not saying the entire reaction to COVID was accurate. It was a scary time, and people made mistakes. Absolutely.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: You were scaring people.
DANA BASH: Why are you saying that?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Because that was the job of CNN: to put the chyrons up about how many people—
DANA BASH: We were trying to listen to the leaders in this country, including the president, who had a daily press conference explaining what was going on—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Were you listening?
DANA BASH: I want to talk about measles.
The measles cases in the U.S. just reached a 35-year high, the second record-breaking year in a row. Ninety-three percent of these cases are among the unvaccinated.
The outbreak is happening on your watch. Even before becoming HHS secretary, for years you have been one of the leading voices questioning the efficacy of vaccines.
Do you accept some responsibility for this measles outbreak?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Absolutely not.
First of all, this is an international outbreak, and we are doing better at handling it than any country in the world.
Mexico has 15 times the amount of measles per capita that we have. Canada has four times the amount of measles. England has two times the amount of measles.
Did I cause those measles outbreaks?
DANA BASH: You’re the most famous—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Did I cause 137,000 cases?
DANA BASH: You’re the most famous vaccine skeptic on the planet.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Anthony Fauci, in his diaries, answers the question about why we’re having a measles outbreak right now.
The reason we’re having a measles outbreak is because of the COVID lockdowns. Children during that period did not get vaccinated.
In his diaries, he says this is going to cause massive outbreaks of measles and that more children are going to die.
Let me finish, because you accused me of something.
DANA BASH: No, I didn’t. I asked you a question.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Let me give you the answer.
He says in his diaries that more children are going to die from measles because of these lockdowns than from COVID.
The age group that should have received the MMR vaccine when they were 18 months old and did not get it—that’s the group being infected.
We have stopped the outbreaks at record speed in South Carolina, Texas, Utah and Virginia. We’ve done better than any country in the world.
I immediately dispatched the Epidemic Intelligence Service to those states. I got on the phone with the governors, and we stopped them in their tracks. Nobody else has been able to do that.
DANA BASH: You have a bully pulpit—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Let me tell you one last thing.
The communities that are suffering from measles are almost all religious communities that just don’t vaccinate.
The Mennonites have not vaccinated since 1796, since Edward Jenner invented the smallpox vaccine. It’s hard to blame that—
DANA BASH: I don’t want to blame you. I’m asking you because you have a very powerful voice on these issues for people who are skeptical.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: I’ve never questioned the efficacy of the MMR vaccine.
DANA BASH: What I want you to do is use your bully pulpit.
Right now, as we’re getting close to back-to-school season, are you willing to look into the camera and say to parents who have not vaccinated their children that they should vaccinate their children for measles because it is safe and will help save their children’s lives?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: We tell people on my websites and in my public statements right now—
DANA BASH: Look into the camera.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Parents should get their children vaccinated for measles.
The measles vaccine is effective. It stops measles in about 97% of cases. People should get vaccinated.
DANA BASH: The Wall Street Journal reported that the president is pressuring you to conduct studies probing the link between vaccines and autism. Is that true?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Did you say probing the link?
DANA BASH: I’m quoting The Wall Street Journal. The president wants you to go further to probe the link between autism and vaccines.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: He certainly does.
DANA BASH: Have you talked to him about medical research that has studied this for 25 years and found no link between autism and vaccines?
My question is: Why not study what could cause autism, which scientists believe starts with fetal brain development? Why not study whether there are environmental factors that contribute to a genetically predisposed situation?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: We’re doing all those things. That’s one of the ways that we found Tylenol.
There are 73 studies out there that link Tylenol exposure during later pregnancy and during the perinatal period to autism onset.
But you are wrong when you say that this issue has been studied.
You’re rolling your eyes, Dana.
DANA BASH: I am, because I don’t want to have you use our air to say this.
There have been more than 40 studies involving 5.6 million people that concluded there is no link between vaccines and autism.
This is according to the head of the Committee on Infectious Diseases for the American Academy of Pediatrics.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Let me tell you what the Institute of Medicine says.
The National Academy of Sciences is the ultimate arbiter on vaccine safety, and it does not have an interest in this debate.
It says that none of the vaccines administered during the first six months of life have ever been studied for their relationship to autism.
It found two studies: one on the DTP vaccine, which showed that it does cause autism, and one on the hepatitis B vaccine, which again suggested that it does cause autism.
The Institute of Medicine dismissed those two studies because they were based on the CDC’s database.
The studies you’re referring to are all about one vaccine, the MMR vaccine, or one ingredient, thimerosal.
DANA BASH: So you are starting new studies to try to link vaccines to autism, but you’re also—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: I’m not trying to link autism to anything. I’m trying to find out why autism has gone—
DANA BASH: Are you also trying to find out how it interacts with people’s DNA and what predisposes somebody to have an autistic child? Are you doing both?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Yes. You probably don’t understand this because you’re not a scientist—
DANA BASH: You’re not either.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Genes don’t cause—
DANA BASH: I understand genes—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: —epidemic vulnerability. A gene provides—
DANA BASH: An environmental—
That’s what I’m asking. Are you studying the environmental—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: We’re looking at all the different environmental exposures.
But your statement that this has been studied is not true. It’s categorically—
DANA BASH: It is considered—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Decided by whom?
DANA BASH: By every scientist who has studied this.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: That is not true. I can give you hundreds of scientists who have looked at this.
DANA BASH: Do you understand why people aren’t getting—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: The National Academy of Sciences—what greater authority—
DANA BASH: Do you understand why people are not getting measles vaccines? Because they’re hearing you say that it could cause—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: You’re trying to change the subject.
DANA BASH: I’m not. It’s very much related.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Show me one of the studies that has been done on the first eight vaccines administered during the first six months of life. You will not find them.
The National Academy of Sciences—
DANA BASH: If that’s the case, why are you telling people to get the measles vaccine?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Because that is one of the vaccines that has been studied. It’s the only one that has been studied.
DANA BASH: Do you want people to get the MMR vaccine?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Yes. I said that already.
DANA BASH: Okay.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: I know you’re flustered now—
DANA BASH: I’m not flustered at all. I am frustrated.
The reason I’m frustrated is because you are the HHS secretary, and you are talking about things that lead to vaccine hesitancy in this country.
It is something that causes problems for people when there is not anything—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Let me ask you something.
Do you see your job as ending vaccine hesitancy, or do you see your job as telling the truth to the American people?
DANA BASH: I see my job as telling the truth.
The truth is that there is study after study after study. It is one of the most studied things out there in science.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: You’re repeating it like a parrot. Have you actually read the science?
You don’t want to hear and debate the science.
DANA BASH: I’m not debating this.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Of course you’re not.
All you want to do is repeat things that people told you and say, “Trust the experts.”
That’s what you did during COVID.
Now we know that Anthony Fauci, who was the expert, was lying about everything—about masks, about social distancing, about natural immunity, about transmission from the vaccine and about the source of COVID.
He was lying, and you were punishing people for not trusting the experts.
Now you’re rolling out the experts again to talk about something you have no personal knowledge of.
DANA BASH: Guess what? It is my job to talk to people—
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Your job is—
DANA BASH: Am I allowed to talk to the American public?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Yes.
DANA BASH: My job is to get as much information as I can.
What we were doing during COVID—and what we are still doing with regard to these vaccines—is getting the best information and the best science that we can and putting it out there.
Sir, what you are doing is causing information to be put out there that is not accurate.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Who is lying to you?
DANA BASH: The National Academy of Sciences, which you just cited, said in November, “We support the statement that vaccines do not cause autism.”
This is the National Academy of Sciences that you just talked about.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Look at the National Academy of Sciences’ most recent report, and you’ll see.
…
DANA BASH: I’m sorry that this turned into a very contentious conversation. My job is to try to get the best information out there. It does concern me when you come in and say things that have been disputed by people who have significant scientific backgrounds and who I know have tried to talk to you as well.
